number one, this comes from people like john mccain and others, you know, who very much oppose enhanced interrogation. and he has some experience as obviously he does. and other people, a, because of american values, even stan mcchrystal said this. >> i read his book. it's a good book. >> okay. do you agree with his position? when you say enhanced interrogation, why don't we call it what many believe it ought to be called, torture? >> because it's not. >> what's the difference? >> the difference is we went through a long, difficult, and labored process with the justice department before we started the enhanced interrogation programs. >> tell us where the red line is. do we got approval for the programs that did go, that they were "not torture." and we got signed off by the president of the united states, by the entire national security council, briefing on all of those programs. >> but we stopped water boarding. >> we did. >> because? >> because there was so much flack over it. >> but if it was getting such good results -- >> it got good results. >> but there are still people at guantan